internal affairs and political circumstances of the western states actually rules libya today it's a good question i would say that the militias they have the last ward and. the ruling good. institutions are helpless and because of this has libya become a center for jihadist terror today so powerful all could thus he fought against them trying to make their power and he succeeded to without extent but it's doing that the arab spring a rebellion in libya they powered the strings and became a leading power they have a charisma thick leadership they have the militaristic utils they have a lot of weapons they are. absolutely determined to achieve their goal which means to reach power or at least to reach first position to. loudly affect the country's agenda and state order but still libya is in a state also searching its way. so the question is not right now what will be next and that's exactly my next question what will be next in terms of the region and the influence of the jihadists inside libya and then penetrating the rest of north africa this is really the most crucial point becaus

there is no police now in libya didn't bring. the results the western countries saw east on the contrary it brought a lot of damage professor i was in libya at the time and i remember when those first nato planes bombed the argument that was being presented was that they felt that the people of benghazi were under a real threat of being completely annihilated so was that not a good enough argument and that was the argument at the time that they were coming to the rescue of people who were loyal to risk people is always a sacred mission no doubt about it so this logic should have acted also in the syrian case which is much much it it's really a bloodshed and there is no military intervention of the west so. there were other motives what were those motives economic it is a very rich country with oil and as are thought the other considerations which relates to internal affairs and political circumstances of the western states actually rules libya today it's a good question i would say that the armed militias they have the last ward

. >>> for most of my life libya was a word with bad associations. libya meant gadhafi. libya meant terrorism. >> pan am flight 103 went down in a blazing fireball. >> libya meant a bad place where a comical megaloma niccal dictator was the absolute power. nobody in libya, however, was laughing. >> reports of explosions. >> clashes between rioters and security forces. >> in 2011, what was previously unthinkable happened. the libyan people rose up and fought for their freedom. >> heavy battles raging around the libyan capital. >> they fought like hell. >> the rebels are about to force gadhafi's complete departure. >> they recorded the whole thing on their cell phones. >> libya! ♪ i took a walk in this beautiful world ♪ ♪ felt the cool rain on my shoulder ♪ ♪ found something food in this beautiful world ♪ ♪ i felt the rain getting colder ♪ ♪ sha-la-la-la ♪ sha-la-la-la ♪ sha-la-la-la-la ♪ >>> it's amazing arriving here after all you see on tv these days that libya is, in fact, functioning at all. but it is. the fountains across from the kornish are operating. traffic works

approaching this the troops libya a two day course nothing libya is. all. state. out political stability. with out internal security for its people out of security in its border could it have been different if we rewind to just after gadhafi is of throwing who knows nobody can say yes or no course about they think of the the western intervention in libya was not necessary i think of that if gadhafi was still there under the circumstances of the arab spring libya could reach a quite different conditionals why what was that about international intervention that was so wrong the fact that it happened or the fact that it left a vacuum in its place i think it was premature to intervene in the libyan in turn are all cunts leaked. this internal conflict should have been. shaped by its own people without any foreign intervention particularly not such a military our tech that eradicated the production regime with out having the time to act for preparing alternatives for his regime the libyan society. is absent are of any civil societies there is no organized co

those of us who knew libya, knew there was another libya, wonderful people.a dead person. do you remember this? do you remember that? then in february 2011, suddenly there was resurrection. the dead came back to life. >> we meet at a libyan coffeehouse. a traditional male only sort of a joint. cafe culture is big here. a holdover from the days of italian colonization when mussolini tried to rebuild rome's long lost empire. >> it's just been the most amazing experience. seeing the rebirth of a country, of a people. >> i mean, last night's fireworks. there was a general sense of exuberance bordering on anarchy. i mean, i felt very happy there last night. if somewhat in peril. >> it's christmas. it's whatever, it's the fourth of july. rolled into one. but it also, there are people who trying to stop it, puritans, extremists and we won't say militants, but what has happened is that people want to come out in defiance of that. they're showing, we want to have fun. for a long time in libya, you couldn't have fun. >> the biggest misconception is the place is turning

this status libya today enough in libya is it took all and violent state.out political stability. our internal security for its people out security in its border could have been different if we rewind to just after gadhafi is overthrowing who knows nobody can say yes or no course about i think of the the the western intervention in libya was not necessary i think of that is khadafi was still there under the circumstances of the arab spring libya could reach quite different conditionals why what was it about the international intervention that was so wrong the fact that it happened or the fact that it left a vacuum in its place i think it was premature to intervene in the libyan internal comes leaked. this internal catholic should have been. a shaped vote by its own people without any foreign intervention but equally and not such a military are take that eradicated the production regime with out having the time. to act for purring alternatives for his regime the libyan society. is absent are of any civil societies there is no organized communication system t

oxford he is a researcher of middle eastern history at the university of cambridge and president of libya analysis dot com in washington we have michael hughes he is a freelance journalist in a foreign policy analyst and in new york we cross to eric draitser he is the founder of stop imperialism dot com gentlemen cross-talk rules and i mean you can jump in anytime you want if i can go to eric first to new york you see it ministration bill fixing facts and and intelligence around a set policy i think you know where i'm going to wrap two thousand and three well there's no doubt about it and you've already touched on the historical record that we've seen of the united states making sure that the intelligence preconceive narrative one that serves its interests in the interests of the military industrial complex and what we've seen in syria particularly in recent weeks has been precisely the same pattern. and isn't it a nice coincidence that the issue of the chemical weapons in the supposedly documented evidence from the united states of the use of chemical weapons so-called chemical weapons b

back in libya, americans are more concerned about terror attacks. but deputy assistant for diplomatic security charlene lamb says they shouldn't make a formal request for the extension of the security teams set to leave in august. >> lamb was discouraging to put it wildly. why do you keep putting this forward? >> august 8th. ambassador stevens sends another cable to washington. "what we have seen are not random crimes of opportunity, but rather targeted and discriminate attacks." less than a week after that cable, lieutenant colonel wood and his military sight security team leave the country. how did you feel about the security situation when you left? >> i didn't like it. and specifically for benghazi. >> reporter: still, stevens is being pushed to increase the diplomatic presence in the city. >> secretary clinton wanted benghazi converted to a permanent consistent post. chris needed to report before september 30th, the end of the fiscal year. >> september 6th, charlotte, north carolina. the democrat national convention. >> today, without a single

intervention the answer because of course we saw what happened in the wake of libya we're seeing kind of a similar approach to syria now moving on and we saw what happened in iraq completely be stabilized and unfortunately the international community has failed. in many ways to to plan for something that comes after a conflict i mean we've seen nato being extremely effective in using power to destroy or to. subdue or to june but they have consistently failed in planning for the post conflict period i mean we've saw that in afghanistan resort in iraq we seeing it in libya where they. pulled out very quickly without really the benefit of trying to sort of held the new emerging state to build institutions and i think clearly that might happen in syria yes so what was the intervention really about because i've heard a lot of people speculate that it was about the gold dinar that single gold currency that gadhafi was trying to launch across africa do you think there's any truth to that claim no i mean i think i mean i i did the intervention i think was very clearly an attempt i mean a resp

defined the arab spring that struck the middle east just two years ago aside from the spotlight on libya supporting and surrounding benghazi and ambassador stevens' death the country has by and large been off the corporate news radar but it shouldn't be because of what we saw in libya a year ago tells us anything it's that the security and stability of the country is severely in question in the wake of the two thousand and eleven nato led intervention in fact two weeks ago at least twenty five people were killed and seventy others injured and major clashes between pro. testers government forces and rebel forces last week six soldiers were killed and five injured in similar clashes and just today bombs completely flattened a police station in benghazi and the trend of increased violence and chaos that many experts say is sinking the country in a state of total anarchism is here to talk about the power struggle developing on the ground and how all of this can undermine real progress in the country i'm joined by huff it al ghul middle east affairs analyst and libyan american columnist thank

intervention the answer because of course we saw what happened in the wake of libya we're seeing kind of a. similar approach to syria now moving on and we saw what happened in iraq completely destabilized and unfortunately the international community has failed. in many ways to to plan for something that comes after a conflict i mean we've seen nato being extremely effective in using power to destroy or to. subdue or did you but they have consistently failed in planning for the post conflict period i mean we've sort of gonna stand resort in iraq we seeing it in libya where they pulled out very quickly without really the benefit of trying to sort of held the new emerging state to build institutions and i think do you believe that might happen in syria yes so what was the intervention really about because i've heard a lot of people speculate that it was about the goal dinar that single gold currency that gadhafi was trying to launch across africa do you think there's any truth to that claim no i mean i think i mean i i did the intervention i think was very clearly an attempt i mean a re

some analysts have been pointing out how the intervention in libya might have played a role in what took place in mali especially when we're talking about the flow of weapons into the country or the rise in tensions said looking at the terrorist attack that we saw in algeria what do you think of this assessment. who provided weapons to libya who helped fight gadhafi it's western countries at some point who have decided to fight libya because colonel gadhafi had ideas to pull africa out of poverty very smart ideas and thinking of his money tree system and it was troubling west and american systems who had to get rid of him and that's what the western is did i believe that france and other european countries are responsible for crimes against humanity during the military intervention in libya which i always opposed to the belgian parliament today we see that the weapons can come from anywhere the rebels in syria also using weapons and they find them somewhere and who provides those weapons western countries those that countries like the usa england and belgium as of we provided we gave a l

was the way to go and we see the unintended consequences those weapons then flowed from libya across borders to mali and have now contributed to really chaos in the region there stabilize the region without a doubt so you have the weapons you know both provided by the west as well as from from caches in libya and you also have a military training ironically in the u.s. right captain sanogo who launched the coup in mali was actually trained in the u.s. for the past decade as part of the transfer hell initiative you know to the kind of seek out terrorists throughout the region well this was the result centrally army and equipping an army that decided to take things into their own hands and created havoc in the region do you even golding nor had anything to do that because i know a lot of people are speculating about that and gadhafi is kind of pursuit of that and you mentioned the currency kind of being developed by the you well i think you know it's like iraq they're off often multiple rational people say it isn't only the oil that was the issue in iraq when the u.s. invaded but but c

was the way to go and we see the unintended consequences those weapons then flowed from libya across borders to mali and have now contributed to really chaos in the region there stabilize the region without a doubt so you have three weapons you know both provided by the west as well as from from caches in libya and you also have a military training ironically in the u.s. right captain sanogo who launched the coup in mali was actually trained in the u.s. for the past decade as part of the transfer hell initiative you know to the kind of seek out terrorist throughout the region well this was the result centrally army and equipping an army that decided to take things into their own hands and created havoc in the region do you even golding nor had anything to do that because i know a lot of people are speculating about that and gadhafi is kind of pursuit of that and you mentioned the currency kind of being developed by the you well i think you know it's like iraq they're off often multiple. people say it isn't only the oil that was the issue in iraq when the u.s. invaded but but clearly

also attempted to intervene and i mean libya here the i.c.c. was there from the very beginning presumably to collect evidence of war crimes but what surprised me and a lot of international observers most is that the chief justice of the i.c.c. at the time mr accompanied only tried to collect the air the evidence but also. tried to publicize them let's listen to what he had to say of the time we are finding some elements confirming this issue of appreciation of. of. the contents. showing the policy. they were binding containers was probably to enhance the books if you do break it is now more or less established that that story was a hoax concocted by the rebels but what surprises me the most is the found body like mr a compass a universally recognized and renowned lawyer would go public with this evidence why the investigation is still ongoing because all we know from the movies that mean those of us who are not lawyers we know how much care goes into shielding the justices and the jurors and the judges from all that media exposure but you have

few of us lobbied was the loss of a child was portrayed as the butcher of the balkans in the case of libya to was get dopy the chair of criminal and in the case of syria now it is a thought who is supposedly killing his own people i wonder why is there so much out persist on the leaders because clearly they were not driving around and doing all the killing themselves societies in their national criminal systems in the international society and its international crime tribunals. needs to be able to divide some people of as having behaved so badly that they should really be regarded as criminals and that's not very much different from what happens in ordinary society but. what is perhaps very important to have in mind is that political and military leaders these days should be counted as knowing what people beneath them will do if they take certain decisions about propaganda about separating societies and accordingly it may be that the focus of attention should be much more on the leaders who bear responsibility rather than on the low level offenders or perpetrators who commit particularly n

the insurrection in libya would have ended enormous number of lives would have been laws. supplies would have continued you know and you know happily same way the same as in syria the conflict could've ended years ago now again you know energy supplies to europe to wrestle world every would have would have continued before instead america got involved and made things much worse and so all right gentlemen i'm sorry george what everyone else is george bruce we have run out of time fascinating conversation many thanks indeed my guests in washington and new york and thanks to our viewers for watching us here darkie see you next time remember across topples. i would rather ask questions for people in positions of power instead of speaking on their behalf and that's why you can find my show larry king now right here on r.t. question more. interview . a feel good film from. well into the future this month high tech means could help whether it be the latest laser cutters or lifesaving heart valves rushing to innovators are working hard to keep you healthy for some companies it's b

in libya i agree with george. that probably would have happened when ever we decided and the world this well it is i'm going to back bruce but i can take i can take it and flip it around again just leave these little loners just leave these people alone leave leave them alone well but when i'd like to smile or and the reality is. no no one russia is not leaving syria alone yeah but russia isn't going around the world invading countries at all russia is honoring international longa that is transparent ok no i don't it's not it's not the same thing either it's not the same thing at all not nearly so and and since sim similarly while you know one cannot defend the democratic. sensibilities of the of the syrian of the saudi regime in any by any stretch of the imagination as there is none it's not just our interest it's not just our interest we've pursued there at this point if the saudi regime would descend into some kind of chaos it would be china it would be japan it would be europe who would suffer a mark far more

remember libya you member may have finished go right ahead maybe maybe it maybe if the us had taken the steps that were absolutely necessary when the violence started in the regime was using aircraft to have a no fly zone it probably would have been over right now so i think all sides external powers that have an influence there have made strategic mistakes which have been deadly for the for the syrians you know flint i think i've always wanted to. go always been a very curious when the americans say someone has to go and it's usually a strategic mistake go right ahead. no i absolutely agree with that and you know your reference to libya is very important i mean the russian and chinese vetoes at the u.n. come against the backdrop of both russia and china having left the libya resolution go through in march the libya resolution which authorized the use of force to protect civilian populations on humanitarian grounds but which the united states and others then turned into basically a regime change campaign with nato aircraft flying missions where they're out to kill gadhafi and you kn

being in many many prisons there and it's well documented that the scale of human rights abuses in libya is much greater now than it was ever a jeering bigot after all so my question to you is why the i.c.c. that was so concerned about their observance of human rights in libya prior to here the murder of gadhafi why is it so nonchalant about it now. i agree with you and i think the use of the word no so long as it is a very good word of all possibly use it in some later filings i make of the court they have shown themselves apparently willing to accept that libya can deliver justice to. saif gadhafi el and all that supposed to see if that becomes relevant rather than try and. right to have those men tried in the hague we're still awaiting that decision it may come out and everybody thinks that they will be compelled eventually to say who those people must be handed over for trial in the hague but you're quite right that thus far they have been singularly notional about the level of justice being offered in libya when for example in the kenya case they took a radically different approach

come against the backdrop of both russia and china having left the libya resolution go through in march the libya resolution which authorized the use of force to protect civilian populations on humanitarian grounds but which the united states and others then turned into basically a regime change campaign with nato aircraft flying missions where they're out to kill gadhafi and you know from a russian perspective from a chinese perspective i think from a decent international legal perspective that is and it does say the least an extremely problematic scenario and russia and china were not about to let this scenario repeat itself in syria and you know as far as you know the united states doing. what was necessary early on i mean there is this small matter of sovereignty there is this small matter of international law that says you only get to use force when the security council authorizes or under a fairly narrow interpretation of self-defense in the un charter the united states has no right it may have a hedge of monic parag it ever think it does but it has no right to impose no fly zones

is that again let's reference it to libya. all the noise all across the world.the anniversary of 9/11. the cairo he demonstration. there were demonstrations in pakistan and other muslim countries. was there too much information we couldn't focus, we couldn't see through the noise, so to speak, to see the real peril our people were in this libya? >> i think that the noise in the system is sometimes can be distracting to people. we can kind of look at things and we get -- the things that are familiar we understand. the things that are less familiar we think are unlikely and the result is that people make mistakes and it is a tough job the intelligence business. i give credit to those folks who are in it. it is hard work and you can't always be right. but i quite agree with you that it was an anniversary of september 11th he. it was a time when all of the system was blinking red. people, the british pulled out. and it is important that we try to do better at it. what is really hurt -- what has really hurt, however, is afterwards there have been a whole series of di

. >>> for most of my life libya was a word with bad associations. libya meant gadhafi.flight 103 went down in a blazing fireball. >> libya, a bad place where a comical megalomaniacal dictator was the absolute power. nobody in libya, however, was laughing. >> reports of explosions. >> clashes between rioters and security forces. >> in 2011, what was previously unthinkable happened. the libyan people rose up and fought for their freedom. >> heavy battles raging around the libyan capital. >> they fought like hell. >> the rebels are about to force gadhafi's complete departure.