037539. that's the vibrancy. >> of our democracy. >> we know what happens. >> when. >> donald trump turns. >> his ire onto someone. >> america first becomes america alone becomes america last. alone becomes america last. >> the weekn toothless, let's take her down. gently. how to train your dragon is... thank you for nothing. you useless reptile. >> good to. >> be with you. i'm alex witt in for katy tur. immigration demonstrations have sprung up in cities across. >> the. >> u.s. after four days of protests. >> in los angeles. >> today, president trump. >> is defending the deployment. >> of the national guard. >> and u.s. marines. despite the. >> objections of california's governor. and the mayor of l.a. >> if we didn't get involved

right now, los angeles would be burning just like it was burning a number of months ago with all the houses that were lost. los angeles right now would be on fire, and we have it in great shape. >> protests against the trump. administration's immigration crackdown. >> did continue. >> overnight, but. >> state and city officials have said. >> there were. mostly peaceful. mayor karen bass telling my colleague on cabrera this. >> morning federal troops. >> were not needed. >> they took over the authority from the governor for the national guard. and so federalizing troops, when the troops were not requested, i didn't make a request. the chief of police or the sheriff. the sheriff is the one who officially makes the request. no one asked for help. yes, there was violence. yes, there was vandalism. but we have a law enforcement community here beyond los angeles police department. >> california governor gavin newsom says trump's threats to arrest. >> him, a political opponent.

>> are, quote, what we see around the globe. >> in authoritarian regimes. >> joining us now is nbc news national correspondent david noriega from los angeles. nbc news white house correspondent monica alba and new york times pentagon correspondent, nbc news political contributor helene cooper. welcome to you all. david. you first. they're out in the hotbed. let's talk about the protests last night. were they mostly peaceful? >> yes, they were for sure, alex. not only were they mostly peaceful, they were substantially smaller and more scattered than the protests we saw on sunday. there were also a lot calmer. now, there are always some sort of confrontational protesters, some water bottles and things like that thrown at police, but nothing like what we saw on sunday in terms of people blocking the freeway, setting multiple vehicles on fire, throwing scooters and debris off freeway overpasses onto police vehicles below. we didn't see anything like that. now i have to attribute that to a massive, truly massive law enforcement response by local, county and state police who truly seem to outnumber protesters yesterday

by, in some cases, even 2 or 3. now here's what to look forward to though. the question that i'm asking is whether the deployment of the marines to the city might itself trigger more of a response from protesters, more unrest, but also, perhaps more importantly, now that we're getting new details on what the role of those marines is going to be here in los angeles, in the possibility that it might be accompanying ice agents on further raids. we have to remember that it's these, you know, pretty much indiscriminate, large scale immigration enforcement actions at workplaces, places like home depots, places like garment factories that touched off this unrest in the first place. one of the things that i've been reporting on, alex, is the fact that a lot of lawyers here in the la area have had a lot of trouble reaching the people who were arrested in these raids, including not just lawyers, but also family members, loved ones, other community members. i spoke, for example, to an episcopal pastor who was at the protest yesterday whose congregation was affected. he has he has families in his congregation who were affected by these raids, who say they still have not been able to get

in contact with the people who were detained. take a listen to what he said. >> that this shouldn't. >> be a hard thing to be able to locate somebody that was, you know, here just a couple days ago. and then we know. they've actually we don't. >> know these days. >> we don't know. >> if they're. >> in adelanto or santa ana or they. >> go to texas. >> you know. >> they're taking people to texas. >> or new orleans or, you know, louisiana. who knows? >> right. >> let alone. >> there, you know. >> being deported already. and we might not know. >> or to some. >> third, you know, country. so there's a lot of fear. around what the possibilities could be. >> so i have been in contact with folks from the immigrant defenders legal center. this is the largest pro bono universal representation organization that provides lawyers to immigrants in detention in southern california. they say that of the hundreds of people who were detained in the last week or so in california, they've only been able to get in contact with three of them at the adelanto ice processing center. it's a big ice detention center a couple of hours outside of the

city, even though many more than that are detained there. this not only raises serious due process issues, according to the lawyers, but also is skewing the picture in terms of what we know about the people who are detained. dhs has released information about 11 or so protesters, not protesters, sorry, immigrants detained in these raids that they characterize as having serious, sometimes violent criminal convictions. we don't know much about the other people, the hundreds of other people who were detained. of those three people, though, that lawyers have been able to reach, i can tell you that two of them are women arrested at the raid at the garment factory not far from here, who have been in the united states for about two decades, who have u.s. citizen children who were arrested at their workplace. one of them has no criminal record, the lawyers tell me. another has one conviction that is many years old for a minor, nonviolent, nonviolent offense. this is new reporting, alex, that hasn't been reported elsewhere. we're trying to get more information about who those people are that are getting arrested. and the reason this is important for a lot of reasons, alex. but one of them is the fact that, again, it was this kind of large scale immigration enforcement operation that touched off unrest in a city like los angeles, where the undocumented

population is very deeply embedded in the fabric of the city. people have undocumented children in schools or u.s. citizen children in schools have undocumented parents. everybody in the city probably knows someone who's undocumented, whether they know it or not. so if these operations continue in the days to come, especially if they are militarized with active duty marines, it's a big question whether that's going to hit a nerve once again, and whether we might see an escalation of the kinds of responses we've been seeing from people in this city, and not just the city. santa ana yesterday saw some unrest, this larger region. alex, that's the main thing to keep an eye on in the days to come. >> yeah. santa ana, about. >> a 40 minute. >> drive down the five freeway from where you are. david. thank you for that. monica, i want to pick up on on the last part that he was talking about there, because what we had been told was that the role marines would play would be to put safety. >> barriers around buildings, like the one that david. >> standing in front of federal buildings. and yet now we're hearing that maybe they will go out in a company ice agents. that means going out. >> anywhere in the community. >> and probably double folding

the kind of force that. individuals will encounter. >> and there are still some questions, i would say, alex, about exactly the role that marines are going to be playing. we do understand from new reporting from our colleagues, julia ainsley and courtney kuby, that they are going to be likely accompanying ice in terms of providing some transportation support and helping them, as you're saying, with some of the logistical aspects. but just now in the oval office, our other colleague, garrett haake, tried to ask president trump specifically about what kind of rules these marines have been advised to obey and to be carrying out when they are out there. and the president didn't really want to get into that and didn't really provide any details. but we're learning a little bit more through this reporting that they are given some cards. and specifically when we're talking about operating militarily domestically, it's known as rules of force. that's something that they would be given sort of

laminated card with some instructions that it sounds like that's what they're being, at least for now, told. but there have been questions raised about what else they might be doing, where they are sleeping, what kind of resources they have access to. and again, the white house is saying in terms of their argument, they say they are needed there because, in the words of the president. otherwise los angeles would be under siege. you just heard david, who is on the ground there, say that clearly that has shifted, and it hasn't really been the reality on the ground in the last 24 hours. but it's something where they're boosting the resources, they're adding and deploying more because it is about a show of force for this white house and for this president who has really made immigration a centerpiece of all of his platform, of his campaign. certainly. and that is what they're leaning into right now. but that question of the marines, of course, continues to be a big one. and then there's also the question, alex, of the duration of this operation. and it sounds like they could be there for anywhere up to 60

days. and that, of course, includes a pretty hefty price tag as well. as we understood from some testimony on capitol hill from the pentagon earlier today. millions of dollars. >> alex, let me ask you. quickly about these laminated cards, because you're saying that the marines would go out into the community to provide logistical support, potentially, for ice agents. these are people that have been trained to use lethal force. they're the best of the best. they go in where nobody else wants to go. when you're talking about the marines. so these cards would do exactly what would they tell them, what specifically they can do up until a point? >> well, that's the question. and it sounds like they are in this support role, and we haven't gotten any indication that it's any different than that, but that because of the unique situation that they're being put into, as you allude to, there has to be some kind of communication about what they are expected to do. and of course, we're drilling down to try to get more on that. but just in terms of the basic of how that's being communicated to them, that is how they are getting their marching orders,

so to speak. >> so, helene, the president himself said that the unrest was calming down thanks to his deployment of the national guard, though others would suggest the opposite. have pentagon officials indicated why they believe the marines are warranted, and why they are. doubling the national guard troops from 2000 on sunday to now 4000? >> hi, alex. >> it depends. >> on who. >> you ask. the pentagon, if you. >> ask pete. >> hegseth. >> who is in always an amplifier of anything that president trump says, he will say, because gavin, he's been. lodging all these criticisms of gavin newsom on social media, he would say, because this is needed. this is, you know, there's lawlessness, that sort of thing. >> if you ask. >> actual military officials and if they speak to you on what we call background or they say privately, all of. >> them, every single one of them that. >> i've talked to has. >> said that they think. >> that trump. >> is just trying to change the

subject from. >> elon musk and looking for an excuse to really move forcefully on an on immigration, as you mentioned, a subject that is near and dear to his heart. i think the. >> white house. >> and the political pentagon leadership believes that this appeals to the trump maga base. and they want they like this idea of a. >> show of force. >> force. this is something that. trump's first term. >> pentagon. >> when you had. >> jim mattis and. >> you. >> had general mark milley, you. >> had even. mark esper really pushed. >> hard against the idea of deploying american troops onto american streets, streets. traditionally, the pentagon has not. liked that at all. they don't want to be. >> caught in the middle of what could be viewed as partizan. >> politics. particularly when. >> gavin newsom did not ask for them, particularly. >> when you have. >> the local authorities. >> saying that they don't want to federalize. this issue at this point. >> so, helene, let me jump in there because you mentioned, you know, jim mattis et al, who is

no longer in power. so what about this current administration, who is expressing concerns, if any, about the expansion of the use of military forces on american soil? >> i don't think they are. i think that's what i'm trying to say. the political pentagon is following whatever trump is saying. you have a culture of fear right now at the defense department. with the lower level people below the political leadership who are very, very. worried about being fired. you've seen the numbers of firings that you've had at federal. workers and within the defense department. so right now everybody is saluting and going along. pete hegseth, who is the defense secretary, is proving himself to be more of an accelerant on this than one a voice of caution. so traditionally, you would have voices of caution express from senior military leaders. but you're not seeing this right now because there is a level of fear about what president trump will do. this is the this is the

cabinet that he's installed, though. >> and the fact that he consistently uses the word insurrectionist to identify people on the streets of los angeles, yet has said heretofore he doesn't intend to use the insurrection act unless he has to. monica, let me tell you, folks in the booth are listening right now to mayor karen bass, who has said she has not heard from either the president or tom homan. what does that disconnect, lack of communication suggest in terms of potential chaos? >> yeah, and there have been, of course, some war of words exchange. you could say there has been an elevated political rhetoric. certainly the president has been answering questions about the mayor. he has been criticizing her. he has been criticizing the leadership of california governor gavin newsom. and we know that at least the two of them had a conversation. we believe earlier on in this timeline, before most of the events of the weekend unfolded, in terms of the president and governor newsom.

but in terms of the mayor, this is a conversation where she's probably in touch with other federal officials, but not necessarily with the president, who certainly isn't picking up the phone to call her because he is instead just saying out loud what he thinks about her. and he has called both of them grossly incompetent and obviously gone after them again in a political way that they feel is beneficial from that standpoint to their cause, in a way that they believe they can set up two political foils fairly easily here. but we do know that in terms of the mayor's communications she has been in touch with, it sounds like other officials. she said something to that effect on our air earlier today, but i wouldn't expect there to be a conversation with the president anytime soon, though he know he has that personal cell phone, he can pick that up whenever he wants if he wanted to call her. but the battle of the rhetoric is certainly where most of the communication is flying right now. >> understandably so. okay, david. monica, helene, thank you. all three. appreciate you.

meantime. up next, what our next guest says is the biggest danger of president trump mobilizing the military in los angeles. plus, what happened when democrats confronted defense secretary pete hegseth on the hill over the cost of deploying hill over the cost of deploying all these troops. we're [gasp!] beak's up! we're trapped by dishes. don't worry. they've got new dawn powersuds. it traps, locks and... removes 99% of grease. so it doesn't get passed from dish... to dish. cleaned and stacked. like ducks in a row. new dawn powersuds. this is what joint pain looks like. when you keep moving with aleve. just one aleve, 12 hours of uninterrupted joint pain relief. aleve. also try liquid gels for fast and long-lasting pain relief. [upbeat music] (vo) this is the new dell ai pc with intel inside. aleve. a pc so ahead of its time, it actually helps you save time. like, literal hours. ♪ because it does all your busy work for you.

♪ so you can get busy doing things you actually want to do. and who wouldn't want more time for that. ♪ anywhere. only on a blackstone, america's insurify. onat insurify we make it easy's best to cut your car insurance bill in half. half? how? just go to insurify.com and compare dozens of quotes in a few clicks. cut out the middleman, so you can cut your bill in half. go to insurify.com and and save up to 50% on your car insurance. >> welcome back everyone. joining us right now we have democratic congressman adam smith of washington. he of course, the ranking member on

the house armed services committee. as we continue with the theme of this hour so far, sir. welcome. the white house clearly wants this incredibly visible standoff in a major sanctuary city. and the wall street journal editorial board writes, california democrats response to this weekend's protest are playing right into the white house's hands. do you, sir, see this as a tipping point for democrats? i'm curious the role that your party is planning to play with tensions so high? >> well, there's really. >> three things going on here. the most alarming. of them. >> is. >> that donald. >> trump is using this. >> as a pretext. >> to gain greater control over the military. look, this. >> is a substantial. >> step towards an authoritarian government. when the president thinks that he can use the us military, both active duty and guard and reserve, as sort of his personal police force. look, a lot of the maga people lamented on january 6th that they hadn't used the military basically to overturn an election and steal the government. so that is the most

concerning thing. the second piece of it is what you allude to. donald trump. sees this as a conversation about immigration and crime, and those are two subjects he wants to talk about politically. that's where he wants to be. he doesn't want to be talking about his budget that's going to cut medicaid, deny health care to people, drive up the debt through the ceiling. he's trying to shift the subject to things that he thinks are a positive for him. and that is concerning from a political standpoint. but the much bigger concern is this is just. >> this is the use. >> of the military on on a very, very small whim. that was not a crisis here. and i think it portends what trump wants to use the military to further advance an authoritarian takeover of our government. that is the biggest thing to be concerned about right now. >> congressman, we have the lapd, which says they were not formally notified that marines would be deployed in los angeles, adding their arrival presents a significant logistical and operational challenge for local law enforcement. i'm curious the

risks, first of all, of such a significant disconnect between local and federal leaders, law enforcement and the military, and when should active duty marines be called in for domestic support? >> yeah, pretty much never is the answer to that second question. i mean, i suppose if there is an actual military invasion or a civil war, you could get into that conversation. but certainly not over a protest of about 100 people over immigration law. so it's not appropriate. and it is dangerous. there's a lack of coordination amongst law enforcement, but also the marines are not trained for this. they're sent down there. they don't know exactly what to do. they're making it up as they go. and lack of coordination between them. the local law enforcement, a guard and reserve is very dangerous. but again, not to keep coming back to the same point. that's not really the point. trump is trying to establish greater power. >> congressman, you said they're making it up as they go. i'm

curious on the way these marines will be utilized. again. these are marines. they've been trained in use of lethal force. nbc news has new reporting. the troops will be escorting ice agents around la as some sort of security, providing some sort of logistical support. but you may have heard our white house correspondent, monica alba, who said they're still trying to nail down the details. what would be an appropriate use, if any, for them in those roles? >> there's no. >> appropriate use. >> as you. >> said. >> they are trained basically to kill. they are trained to fight in war. they're not trained to enforce the law specifically because they're not supposed to be. so yeah, no, they are not trained for this mission. and that creates a massive amount of danger. now, one other point is, i think it is worth saying, how do democrats respond to this? i think we need to point out the authoritarian nature of this. but, you know, i mean, trump is trying to play up the immigration law enforcement issue. and i think it's important in la and elsewhere to

say, yeah, we are. we can do this. we are going to protect our citizens. you know, if a group of people try to shut down a freeway, we're going to clear the freeway and we're going to arrest people. i think it is important to let people know that we are capable of enforcing the law, and we will. and in the past, i don't think that democrats in certain areas that we've controlled necessarily done a great job of that. it's giving this opening to trump, but we can easily take it back by focusing on the on the problems with what he's doing and on the fact, as governor newsom and mayor bass have said, we got this. we can handle this. and in this case, there was no evidence whatsoever that they couldn't. it was not a situation that was out of control. trump jumped the gun to try to establish his power and his control inappropriately. >> and they said they didn't need him. all right. congressman adam smith, good to see you, sir. thank you so much. up next, defense secretary pete hegseth gets combative while testifying on capitol hill for the first on capitol hill for the first time since he was confirmed. patients who have sensitive teeth

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understanding of how what is happening in washington and what policymakers are doing across the country impacts them. >> go beyond the headlines with the msnbc app. read, listen and watch live breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. go beyond the what to understand the why. download the msnbc app now. >> nobody cares more about the troops at the top than this secretary and the chairman and our. >> department will the deployment last. >> we stated very publicly that it's 60 days because we want to ensure that those rioters, looters and thugs on the other side assaulting our police officers know that we're not going anywhere. we're here to maintain the peace. on behalf of law enforcement officers in los angeles, which gavin newsom won't do. >> defense secretary pete

hegseth there on capitol hill this morning, facing questions from members of congress about the deployment of troops into los angeles. joining us now, nbc senior national security correspondent courtney, qb on capitol hill today. courtney, welcome my friend. so secretary hegseth really sparred over the cost of deploying the national guard and the military to l.a. he did that with a couple of members of congress, in fact. so what more have we learned about the cost and the extent of these deployments? >> yeah, and sort of ironically, alex, after he went back. >> and forth with. >> with two different members of congress about this, both democratic members of this, this subcommittee, then the acting comptroller chimed in and said, well, the cost of this mission right now, the estimated cost is $134 million. so she had it at her fingertips to provide all along. now that includes the food, the travel and the basic per diem these service members. >> now now we're over. >> 4000 national guard who have been. >> allowed, who. >> are allowed. >> to be deployed as part of this. they're not all on site yet, but who have been

authorized to go. and these 700 marines we've been talking so much about, who were moved from 29 palms to the greater la area, but. >> at this point. >> we don't have any indications they're actually on the ground on the streets yet, even though, frankly, that could come at any time. >> but as you mentioned. >> a lot of. heated back. >> and. >> forth throughout this hearing about the cost of. the of this mission and then the fact that there's no dod budget for this budget committee. >> to. >> actually ask. >> questions about. alex. >> okay. courtney, thank you so much. when you find out a little more of the answers, come on back with us. appreciate you joining us. right now here in the studio, we have timothy kudo, a former marine corps captain who served in iraq and afghanistan, for which i thank you for your service, tim. so appreciate you being here. i do want to play a little bit more sound from exactly what we were talking about there. courtney was referencing the hearing with hegseth on capitol hill. let's take a listen together. >> the governor of california has failed to protect his people, along with the mayor of los angeles. and so president trump has said he will protect our agents and our guard and

marines are proud. >> also, says mr. secretary, that the orders for these purposes shall be issued through governors of the states. >> you and i both know that president trump has all the authorities necessary, and thankfully he's willing to do it on behalf of the citizens of los angeles, on behalf of our ice agents and behalf of our country. >> there you have it. you're a former marine. how would you and your fellow troops in the day, how would you feel if you had to be deployed to a los angeles area, any big city in this country, to sort of quell unrest? >> i mean, i know the marines that are there that are deployed. they want to do their duty, they want to do right, and they want to defend the constitution. but i think we all recognize every veteran i've talked to recognizes that this could end horrifically. the marines from two seven, who are the marines, the marine unit that's been sent there. they're an infantry unit, which means they're trained to close with and destroy the enemy. they've been training to do this for many months, and the training they've just had on how to deal with civilians, maybe they've gotten in the past 24 to 48 hours, if that.

>> all right. so you may have heard me speaking with our white house correspondent earlier, they're going to be issued some sort of a card by which you're laughing. what what would that card potentially say? because i guess there's a role, a logistical role. when i think of that, i think, what are you going to be driving them around from place to place? what do you think this card entails? >> so i believe that the card that they received indicates what's called the standing rules on the use of force, which is slightly different than the rules of engagement. it applies to how soldiers would conduct escalation of force engagement with civilians. unfortunately, a card runs contrary to how they've been trained for this many months since boot camp. even so, when you know things happen, they're going to react as they've been trained. and in 1992, when the insurrection act was invoked by george h.w. bush, marines actually opened fire on a house, unleashing hundreds of rounds and nearly killing everyone inside. thankfully, nobody has actually hurt just because the police had cover me, because cover me to a police officer means something entirely different than cover me to a marine. >> are you referencing the

rodney king riots in los angeles? los angeles again? what? is it specific to los angeles? do you have any inclination? what? not only that. i mean, i lived in la at the time too, right? and it was pretty horrific. i remember the fires there. i remember ash coming down from the sky because of tires being burned and the like. but this administration, what is it about los angeles that you think gets under president trump's skin? >> i mean, i think he hates that it's a multicultural city. it's one of our great cities. and, you know, having grown up there, like you said, it's a wonderful place where there's a lot of activism and a lot of protests and a lot of engagement by the citizenry. and it's a hugely diverse city. and i think it's something that scares him, because it's a vision of america that he's entirely opposed to. >> here's something that scares you, by my understanding, reading an article that you wrote in an op ed in slate, you talk about quoting what donald trump had said back in 2020 when he was speaking with the chairman of the joint chiefs. i believe this is in regard to some black lives matter protests that were underway, he said. can't you just shoot them? just

shoot them in the leg or something? expand on why you were fearful at that point, hearing that and what you think that portends. for now. >> i think what a lot of civilians don't understand is the degree to which it's very, very hard to not obey an order when you're in the military. so everyone that's serving has an obligation to disobey unlawful orders. so if the if president trump orders them to shoot someone, they should say no, but there's no real mechanism is in place for them to do that. and the pressure in those moments is intense. and so i think our fear is that if trump issues an unlawful order like that to kill an american civilian or to fire on an american civilian crowd, there's going to be nothing to stop them from. from that happening. >> we've heard reports of journalists and others on the ground being shot with rubber bullets, if you will. although i did read about one reporter, i believe, a photographer who his leg got shredded. talk about the rubber bullet versus a live bullet. first of all, would marines be outfitted with rubber bullets. >> so rubber. >> bullets can blind people can kill people even though they are

not metal bullets, they are still can be lethal. they're often referred to as less lethal. the marines who are going to be deployed will very likely be deployed with, i would assume, normal bullets. the regular five, five, six round that m16s and other weapons they carry fire. in addition, if the associated press is reported that they're carrying their standard weapons, which would include machine guns, which can fire up to hundreds of rounds per minute, and if with police kettling tactics, where they kind of condense protesters, if marines with machine guns were to open fire on that, you could have an enormous mass casualty incident that would surpass pretty much anything that america has ever seen. >> i do want to touch on that, which you wrote in the new york times, and it was a discussion about your family history relative to immigration, deportation. share a little bit of that story about your father. >> yes. when my father was nine, my family descended from japan and under fdr after pearl harbor, they were incarcerated without due process under executive order 9066 and placed in concentration camps, first at

manzanar and then at tule lake in northern california. my father was incarcerated for four years, and then he was stripped of his citizenship and deported with the rest of my family to japan. >> quickly. may i ask what prompted you to serve this country in the military after that? >> i mean, it's a very complicated thing for sure, but i think me personally, i believe that america does have a set of ideals that are universal, that people throughout the world do believe in, even if in practice we often fall short. >> timothy kudo, thank you so much for joining us. appreciate your insights. meantime, we have some breaking news for all of you. the california attorney general has just filed a new motion with us. now we have our colleague, msnbc legal correspondent lisa grubin. tell us what we know. what is this all about? lisa. >> so, alex. >> we're all familiar with the fact that last night, governor gavin newsom and the state of california filed a new lawsuit against president trump and secretary hegseth, saying that they're calling up of california national guard members was a violation of trump's statutory authority and the constitution.

now, today, they are seeking emergency relief from that court by 1 p.m. pacific. and specifically, what attorney general is asking for in his motion is not that all troops be removed from los angeles or that they can't be used. rather, i'm going to read to you from the motion. what he's saying is they want the court to prevent those forces from doing things other than protecting the safety of federal buildings or other real property owned or leased by the federal government, or protecting federal personnel. they are seeking what they describe as narrow relief to prevent the use of military personnel in contexts other than the narrow protection of federal property and people. what they're afraid of is that the military, as trump and hegseth has described it in their public comments, will end up being a part of immigration enforcement in la and that they say there is just no legal grounds for. and that's why they're seeking this emergency relief. again, requesting an order from a court

in san francisco, a federal district court there by 1 p.m. pacific time. we have not seen a response yet from the trump administration, and we'll stand by and bring you any updates as they come. alex. >> it gives us less than an hour and a half to get that response. okay. lisa rubin, many thanks. up next is the standoff in la. just a distraction from president trump's other actions. president trump's other actions. what our next guest says etsy is the place for father's day gifts as special as your dad. shop original baseball hats by blair under fifty dollars. or personalized luggage tags designed by sabrina under twenty five and handmade outdoor gear by marcos under two hundred. for kitchenware, home decor, and accessories that get your dad, etsy has it. always dry scoop before you run. listen to me, the hot dog diet got me shredded.

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>> a $400 million luxury jet from qatar. foreign cash pouring into the trump family. crypto venture pardons for political allies, questions over the trump administration's alleged corruption have moved out of the spotlight as president trump stokes outrage over immigration and the la protests. as my next guest writes, our political system is being transformed into something that no longer serves the people. indeed, the united states is seemingly becoming just another country with a corrupt strongman personalizing and profiting from power. powerful words. joining us now is nbc news political contributor and former deputy national security advisor in the obama administration, ben rhodes. ben, welcome. let's get right into your piece because you write the dam is breaking and americans are farther downriver than we seem to understand. explain what you mean by that. >> what i mean is that. >> we tend to think of corruption as kind of isolated instances of politicians enriching themselves. you know, there's some gold bars in exchange for some favors, as was the case with bob menendez,

things of that nature. i think with trump, what we're seeing is the systematic corruption of the entire u.s. government to serve his personal interests. and so the examples i give are you have tariffs, which are a very powerful tool in the hands of a president, allows him to turn the dial up or down in terms of economic pressure in other countries. and you have a 46% tariff announced on vietnam. and lo and behold, during the pause to negotiate trade deals, a $1.5 billion golf course is announced in vietnam for the trump organization with eric trump there. or you have the emiratis putting $2 billion into trump's venture. and then you have the trump administration approving the export of some very sensitive artificial intelligence and advanced semiconductors to the uae. so what you're seeing here is using the awesome power of the federal government to routinely enrich yourself, enrich your family, enrich your cronies. this is what we've seen in russia. this

is what we've seen in hungary. this is what we've seen in turkey. so it's not an unfamiliar playbook. what is unfamiliar, though, is someone with the awesome power of the us presidency doing it. >> so you write that a mobilization of the american people is the best check on this administration's corruption. but as peter baker recently noted in the new york times, since these corrupt practices are playing out openly without formal investigations or consequences, they have become normalized, resulting in limited public outrage. so if mass mobilization doesn't happen, then what other guardrails are there? >> there are none. and i think we have to be candid about that, because without any oversight from congress, which is not going to happen from republican congress with a supreme court that has said, essentially that the president is immune from committing crimes while he's president, in his official duties. the only guardrails are really public pressure or journalistic pressure. and i think for that to happen, it's

not just the outrage. we tend to focus on how much money is coming in or that the planes coming in. i think we need to connect dots for people that this is going to hurt their lives, that if the tariffs become a tool of some kind of enrichment or just a tool of power for trump to control, well, prices are going to go up for people and the economy is going to be more volatile, and people aren't going to be able to plan for their small businesses. or if there are services that don't serve trump's personal interests in some fashion, you know, a rural health care clinic, for instance, that's going to be deprioritized, as we see in this quote unquote, big, beautiful bill relative to tax cuts for people like trump and his cronies, that you have to convey to people that it's not just that they're getting rich, because i think a lot of americans have become so cynical, they just assume that's what happens, but that, in fact, their interests are being deprioritized relative to trump's interest in those around him. >> i'm glad you've said all that and given air to it. let me ask you your thoughts on what's happening to la and those who suggest this is a distraction from almost exactly what you

just discussed with regard to the trump administration? >> i get that, but. >> actually. >> alex, what i'd say is i think it's connected because what i'm talking about is the kind of personalization of the control of the us government. you know, i, the president, control tariffs. i the president control where these technologies go. and i'm going to use those for my interest. what's so scary about la where i'm talking to you from? i'm only, you know, i'm pretty close to where this is taking place. where the marines are literally deployed is it's a personalization of the us military. this is the institution i worked in, national security that is supposed to be the most distant from the personal or political interests of the president, united states. and it's not a coincidence to me, alex, that the same week that we see him deploying over the objections of local leaders who are supposed to be the ones to request deployments, him deploying these troops to los angeles, we're going to see a parade, you know, on trump's birthday of the us military. he's showing us what a lot of strongmen leaders around the world have showed us, which is they don't see the military as somehow distinct from their

own interests. he sees it as an extension. and that is what should be so scary to people. and that is corruption. that's a form of corruption. that's saying that the us military doesn't serve as an independent institution representing the american people. it's something that can be deployed to service trump's domestic policy agenda on immigration, or something that can be used to exalt trump on on his birthday. that's what should scare people, because that can go in worse directions than we've already seen. >> it is sobering just to listen to you, but you make a lot of sense. ben rhodes, as always, we'll see you again. thank you so much. up next, our richard engel takes us to a prisoner exchange between russian and ukrainian troops. >> are you throwing away money on your car insurance? >> yeah. >> that's exactly what. >> i'm doing. >> try and certify. >> we help you compare quotes. >> and save. >> half on your car insurance. >> i like it. >> i like it. >> [upbeat music] (vo) this is the new dell ai pc with intel inside. a pc so ahead of its time, it actually helps you save time.

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>> free men. >> we are at a hospital north of kyiv because a lot of these. >> former prisoners. >> now former. >> prisoners. >> are in. >> pretty bad condition. the men that we've seen come off of these busses. >> or. >> out of ambulances. some are missing limbs. they're all gone. you can tell that they were prisoners. they all had their heads shaved. many of them were limping. and it seems that almost all of these people are going to require medical attention. and for all of the people here, this has been a bittersweet day. of course, people here in ukraine are are delighted to see that ukrainian soldiers are coming home. but all of these people around and you can see this one young woman here who's clearly very distraught, will not focus on her too much and make this day even harder for her. all of these people are relatives of missing ukrainian troops, not necessarily the ones who are coming here. the reason these these people came today is on

the hope that maybe their husbands, their brothers, their sons were among the ukrainians set free today. or they were hoping that perhaps these these soldiers who were set free had information about missing loved ones. and we've seen both cases happen. i spoke to a young woman crying profoundly because she was watching all of these people coming off the busses. yet her relative whereabouts still unknown. no sign of him. yet another woman i spoke to beaming ear to ear. not because her her her father in this case was set free, but because she saw someone who said that she knew where her father was, that she had seen him, that he was still alive. so a very emotional day for ukraine. similar scenes taking place in russia. this was a prisoner exchange. so the ukrainians here being set free, russians going back to their

families, a trust building exercise in this conflict where there is very little trust. >> what an experience. thank you so much, richard, for that. up so much, richard, for that. up next, what the u.s. china looks like we've told people liberty mutual customizes your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need ... for the last time. huh. shallow. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty ♪ a major motion picture. an evolution in customer experience. a game-changing approach to golf. behind them all... advanced 5g solutions from t-mobile for business. disney chose t-mobile to power real-time collaboration between remote production hubs. t-mobile fuels tractor supply's stores nationwide with 5g internet. and innovates with pga of america to elevate the game. business goes further with t-mobile for business. fast signs, create

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some answers quickly. otter, the ai. meeting agent. >> the us and china are holding another day of talks today in london, commerce secretary howard lutnick told reporters. it's going well, but how much of this has to do with tariffs? joining us now is nbc news senior business correspondent christine romans. welcome my friend. >> so hi. >> it's our understanding a lot of this talk is about the rare earth minerals right. not necessarily tariffs. and yet there is a connection there between supply and us manufacturers. right. put it all together for us. >> so rare earth minerals i mean this is such a fascinating part of the economy because it's something that the us essentially invented in, i think, the 50s and the 60s and was a real leader at this. and then china came to the game and could do it on a bigger scale and a hell of a lot cheaper. and

suddenly you had china sort of cornering the market on this part of the industry. so why does it matter? rare earth minerals, these can be used. and i think there's 17 different different kinds of minerals. but they can be used to make things like heat resistant, high heat resistant magnets that go into cars, the auto industry, into the defense industry, into all different kinds of important medical. >> industry, to. >> medical industry, into things that make your economy grow fast and efficient. i mean, it's really, really important here. so we've been talking about tariffs all spring and summer with china. now what happened was the us started complaining that they thought the chinese were slow walking exports of these rare earth minerals to the united states, and that that was going to hurt us manufacturers, car manufacturers, the us defense industry. and this became a big sticking point. as the new york times pointed out yesterday in its analysis, that china really found america's pain point in these negotiations. the us through on those huge tariffs. that was a

big pain point for china. china found america's pain point, and that is the availability, availability of these rare earth minerals. >> who's got the upper hand then? >> it's unclear. that's what they're trying to decide here at these meetings in london. right. i mean, what is the u.s. willing to negotiate so that they can get access to those? now, remember, the united states also has export restrictions on stuff that china needs to things that they need for their own nuclear power plants, for their own aviation industry. so the us has a lot of things that they can put, we can put restrictions on to hurt china too. so both at this point, both sides have just been hurting each other and to the detriment of each economy. so that's what these discussions are about right now. >> okay. we'll see how they play out with your help. thank you. christine romans for sure. the next hour of katy tur report starts right now. >> if we didn't have the military in there, the national guard. and then we also sent in some